Monday, 6 February 2017

Supernatural Think Tank - Anna's Thinky Thoughts on Supernatural 12x10 Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets

-by Anna

For the record I just want to put this out there for those of you who might not already know this.  I'm a Samgirl. I am.  I love Sam Winchester with all my heart.  I love Jared with all that I have.  He's just my cat's meow. Now that I put that out there, let me put this out there as well. I love Dean Winchester.  I love Jensen Ackles.  I love my Winchesters and I love J2. 😍

With that I hope you'll allow me to indulge myself in a bit of a cathartic emotional release and not judge me too harshly for it.😮

First and foremost, our boys are heroes. They are the epitome of what goodness is and they are flawed and make mistakes and try harder than any other character I've ever seen to be the kind of people this world needs more of. The Winchesters are truly inspirational. I just wanted to make clear, how much I admire these two characters. I'm going to take this opportunity, now that you all know the love I share for these boys,to let Dean Winchester have it. I know, pretty risky given that this site is a Dean site. I was going to refrain from even writing this down, but then I thought, why not. Just because there's a trait in someone that just drives you crazy, doesn't make one love them any less.....and given how much I know so many of you adore Dean Winchester, any flaws he might have doesn't take away from that, it doesn't for me.  Like I said, both our boys are flawed, that don't mean we don't love them to the extreme💞.

So, here goes:

I don't know about any of you, but I just wanted to punch Dean in the nose last night, even more than that, I wanted Cas to punch Dean in the nose. There, I said it!

If someone were to ask me "if you could, what is the one thing you would change about Dean Winchester?", the answer would be his hypocrisy. For me, it's Dean's most unattractive quality.  Dean treating Cas the way he did just put my panties in a twist, especially when Dean noted how Cas just took Ishram's crap and let him talk like that to him. I was all WTF? 😵  Seriously, how could Cas take that treatment from Ishram, when Dean had spent most of the beginning of the episode treating Cas the way he did? I'm sorry Deangirls, but that just irked me. It's not just that he said that, but that Dean was giving Cas crap to begin with. With all due respect, Dean Winchester really doesn't have a right to be pissed at Cas given his own history of bad decisions with horrific consequences. Don't get me wrong, both boys are guilty of that, it's just that Sam was the understanding one in this scenario and the peacemaker as well. Dean more than anyone should've understood where Cas was coming from, given that he's been in those same shoes many times before. I get it, I heard Dean, still, it didn't give Dean carte blanche to treat Cas that way, especially since it was more than likely that Dean would've killed Billie himself. Let's get real folks, there is no way on Chuck's green earth that Dean would've allowed Sam to go to the empty. There is also no way, like at all, that Sam would've let Dean go to the empty. Neither brother would ever sacrifice or let the other sacrifice themselves to an eternity of nothingness. So logic tells me that both Winchesters would've gone off with Billie leaving Cas instructions to look out for their mom.

The problem that arose was Mom. They never called on her in the first place, she's been off doing whatever, so I'm leaning towards they didn't expect Mary to be there. Her presence changed everything as did her refusal to let her sons die.  Mom showing up wasn't what either of them expected and Mom willing to sacrifice herself is most definitely an unacceptable consequence for the boys. Given what we all know about our boys, either one or both of them at that point would've taken Billie out if they could have. She had them pinned and they couldn't move. Cas merely did the job for them and if he hadn't Mom would be dead right now. Dean might be all calm now worrying about consequences, but given their long long history, and knowing how much he loves his family, especially his mom, I think I can honestly presume it's safe to say that consequences were not on his mind when a gun was at his mother's head.

Cas made the decision to take Billie out allowing for all the Winchesters to live and most likely prevented one of the boys from breaking the oath by doing it themselves. Even if Mom wasn't there, I still believe Cas wouldn't have done anything differently. What Dean owed Cas was a thank you and some appreciation, instead of giving him the silent treatment and trying to make him feel bad for the decision Cas made.

 Ah...Decisions. One of Dean's other flaws is his tendency to make decisions for people. If Dean thinks it's the right thing to do, he will make a decision for someone whether they would've agreed to it or not, most often we've witnessed it with Sam. We've seen it when he brought Sam back, when he got Sam's soul back (though that one I totally agreed with), and possessed Sam with an angel. We also saw it with Lisa. (moving them around, keeping them on lockdown, erasing their memories of him). I remember what Sam had said to Dean in WNTTAK. Dean had declared that Kevin needed to find the way to close the gates of hell. Sam had noted that free will only applied to Dean. Dean never gave Kevin the option to choose. My point is that if Dean thinks something is right or wrong, he has often made the decision to do it or not, whether or not the person he was deciding for agreed or not. Don't get me wrong, I selfishly agreed with Dean on some of those occasions.  I also understand where this stems from.  Dean has always been in the parental role, and these are things that parents often do. He's often lived by the motto of do as I say and not as I do...again a very parental trait. I think what Dean needs to understand is that people make decisions because they too have a point of view, and it might not be one Dean agrees with. Even so he should still try to understand and respect it as well. I know in this respect Dean has come a long way, but in this ep it seems Dean may have forgotten. Cas made a decision to save the Winchesters because he witnessed what the world became without them in it. They were only gone two months and so many died because they weren't there to save them. Cas wants the Winchesters in his life, don't get me wrong, they are his family. More than that though, the world needs the Winchesters.  Cas' view is that without the Winchesters the world would be worse off than any cosmic consequence Cas would have to face, so he saved them. This was the decision Cas came to and one I think Dean needs to understand and respect a little more.

Don't worry folks, I didn't forget about Sam and his flawed beautiful self. You know what one of Sam's flaws is....there are more times than not that he doesn't speak up for himself. Cas too for that matter. They take more of Dean's hits (literal & figurative) than not. You think Sam's got an incredible gift with those puppy dog eyes 🐕 Dean has an amazing gift as well.... those who love him, don't want to intentionally let him down. They don't want his wrath either. They don't like when Dean is angry with them or at something they did. When it comes to Dean, there is definitely not an "I don't give a damn what he thinks attitude". (I think in Sam's case it's because deep down in there he saw Dean as not only his brother, but in a parental role. Sam's most definitely shown more respect for Dean than his Dad.) It's quite the opposite actually. This includes Cas as well. The way I look at it, in a way that has stunted Dean's ability to recognise his own hypocrisy. If Cas or Sam would've just really let Dean have it once in a while when he does that, he might not be prone to doing it as often.

I totally understand and sympathize....Dean is worried for Cas, as I'm sure Sam is too. I just feel that he should've given him less attitude and a simple gesture of appreciation and thanks... Especially given that Cas pulled a Winchester and saved them all. I know you can argue that Sam didn't utter the words thank you either. That is true, but I know that Sam appreciates Cas by his actions...He is the one who was playing peacemaker. He wasn't giving Cas grief. Sam of all people understands Cas' intentions and motivations and he simply cannot fault him for them. That is Sam showing his appreciation. One can argue the same for Dean....his treatment of Cas was his way of acknowledging what Cas had done.

Trust me, I know the boys are never going to get rid of every flaw, it's not possible and I don't want them to....but I am of the mind that after these 11 1/2 wonderful seasons, given all that Dean has done in the past, even if for what he deemed to be the best, at this stage of the game he should recognise when he's being hypocritical or at the very most alter the way he shows his affection so as to not make someone feel bad.

Who's to say there would be cosmic consequences anyway?  Maybe Billie lied to scare the Winchesters into going through with the deal. Let's face it, Billie has been jonesing for a Winchester since she first arrived, who's to say she wouldn't say anything to get them to come with her.  Even if she wasn't lying, the boys are the ones who made the blood oath, not Cas. Cas is the one who killed Billie, and from where I stand or at this moment sit, that's just your typical run of the mill angel on angel kill....been done before, will be done again. Isn't Death a way more powerful entity than a mere reaper?  I haven't seen any repercussions due to his demise. If we were going to get cosmic consequences, wouldn't it be more likely because the Grim Reaper himself died? Just saying (although maybe there ain't no consequences, because Death ain't dead). 

Let's say there will be cosmic consequences. Cas made the decision so Cas will deal with the consequences when and if they come. I'm sure the boys will be right there with him to help, and they will deal with them together, as they always do. If there is one thing that the Winchesters taught Cas, it's that family is worth it. Regardless of any consequences that have arisen due to the choices Sam and Dean have made, their love for each other has always been what's saved the world. Cas has witnessed that time and time again, so it's not a hard stretch to see why Cas would follow their example. It's the truest testimony to his humanity, which might come into play when dealing with Lucifer's spawn.

That's it. I just needed to get that out of me and writing it all down just makes me feel so much better. I hope I didn't piss off all you Deangirls out there. Like I said, both boys are flawed. Both boys are human.Both boys are heroes. I love them both. It's just the way Dean was treating Cas really bothered me and I needed to just vent...which is kind of funny really, because I'm not even a Cas girl. 😝  I was proud of Cas last week and I totally respected the crap out of him and I just thought he deserved more appreciation than he got. So Cas, that little rant was for you. 😇😋

So how bout we actually discuss the episode itself, because it really was a good one.

I watched it twice now and I have to say I really liked this episode. I really enjoyed Alicia Witt and I liked her character. I felt for her and understood her need for revenge. She was a mother with a child who was taken from her simply because she wouldn't have anything to do with Isham. It felt like any other news story you see on television, only this one involved angels.  I didn't blame Lily at all for going after those who killed her child. They were angels after all and it's not like there would be any justice legally for her.  Like John, it's what kept Lily going, it gave her purpose and hopefully, after centuries of waiting, she got some semblance of peace.  I hope Lily can find a way to keep moving forward, maybe one day finding purpose other than revenge.   She would make a good ally and I hope to see her again.  I also liked the idea that she wasn't a witch, but she used angel magic.  It was also interesting that every time she used it she lost part of her soul.  We've seen this canon before, using the soul's power.  Henry tapped into it to time travel.  Balthazar had also explained how powerful the soul is. It's why Cas was trying to collect them in s6, so he could defeat Raphael.   I also really liked the continuity as well of Sam knowing what it's like to lose one's soul, as he was explaining it to Lily.  I just adore how Sam gets along with practically everyone....except Crowley...😁

I'd like to take this moment to appreciate Sam Winchester.  I always giggle at the fact that despite him being the youngest of TFW, Sam is the one who acts most like an adult. I am always impressed by Sam's capacity to empathise/understand where someone is coming from.  Unlike Dean's somewhat negative reaction to Cas' decision to save them, Sam on the other hand was both understanding and grateful. He defended Cas and recognised that Cas didn't do anything different than they have done in the past. Sam knew there could be cosmic consequences, but he respected Cas' decision and supported him. I just respected the 💩out of him. I also love how well Sam knows his brother...the countdown to when Dean would go into the restaurant because he couldn't wait it out...tickled me to no end.  I also loved that the moment Lily mentioned that Ishram would kill Dean, Sam just had this look on his face and totally went into kick ass mode.  Just a side note,  Sam pretty much always connects the innocent/victim of the week, but has anyone else noticed, that this season in particular, Sam has connected to almost every single female that has guest starred? 

I was proud of Cas too.  I loved that whatever Dean dished out he gave it right back. Of course they didn't make it easy on Sam having to be the peacemaker, but it certainly made me smile.  I was glad to see Cas stick up for himself for a change.   This is the second episode in a row where Cas used his angel blade🗡killing someone in the back....guess badass Cas is finally making his reappearance after all....yay.  I enjoyed the contrast between pre-Winchester Cas and post Winchester Cas. You can really see how much Cas has evolved and became more human.  I wonder if Cas will ever return to Heaven, or if Earth will become his permanent home. I do wonder if his humanity will trump his angelic side when it comes to dealing with Lucifer's spawn.  Should we worry that Dean seems to be reminding Cas a lot that he's family?😮

I know where's the Dean love....don't worry, it's here.  Even though it was a pot/kettle thing, I did appreciate that Dean didn't care for, like at all, how Isham treated Cas. Despite Dean's ragging, he never hesitated to go with Cas on this mission. I also did appreciate that he finally explained to Cas that his behavior stemmed from worry. Dean does that with family and he reminds Cas once again that he is part of theirs. 

If we really take a deeper look at this episode, it's just about a mother seeking revenge for the death of her child. It makes me wonder about Mary. Will there be conflict between her and the boys? Judging from the conversation the boys had with Cas at the end, this baby is dangerous to the world, yet still, it is a baby and when Dean asked Cas what are we going to do about it...Cas said "we'll drink and hope to find another way". He was referring to an alternative to having to kill the child.  Sam and Dean have never been ones to kill children, like ever.  They wouldn't kill the Antichrist.  I wonder if they will be able to kill Lucifer's spawn if it came down to it.

Mary's stance can go either way I guess. She can take the protective mother pov or the hunter pov. I wonder if the BMOL will find out and what the boys will do about them when they most likely do.  Should make for an interesting second half.

Everyone did an amazing job once again.  It was good to see Ian Tracey again (Krissy's dad). He did a great job playing the bad guy this time.  As far as angels, I liked how they were used in this story.  I do wonder if we will see more of them once Lucifer's baby is born.

That's all I got for this week.  Hope you enjoy the read....



  1. I think part of the reason that Dean was so tense about what happened with Billie, is that both he and Sam have been down this road before. They've both made choices that have ended up causing world shattering, and possibly ending, circumstances. Part of their pact at the beginning of season 11 was that they would be smarter about these things. As Sam said, they have to stop repeating the mistakes they kept making over and over - for each other - that bear terrible consequences. Regardless of what we think may or may not have happened, what we were shown was that the boys made a blood oath (they did not do this with Death - I'd never heard of a Reaper blood oath before), and part of that oath was to give Billie a life. In the Lily Sunder episode there was no discussion between the boys indicating they would betray that deal, on the contrary it sounded like their intent was to honour it. Whether they would or would not have, we will never know and can only speculate. As can we only speculate that Billie still intended to send one to the empty - that may or may not have been the case, as this was a different situation to one of them simply dying. So though I agree Dean could have articulated to Cas what he did to Sam at the beginning of the episode, that he was thankful for Cas saving the day, his concerns are valid and rooted in experience, fear and regret.

  2. I'd also like to add, one of the aspects of Dean of which I am most proud, is his growth over the last few seasons. He has taken a lot of criticism on board and has changed a lot of behaviours. He has become far more honest and transparent, and has allowed others their space to make their own decisions, and has discussed options with his brother without arbitrarily making decisions on their behalf. This has been instrumental in the transformation of his relationship with Sam. Everyone can slip up when worried or stressed - I certainly don't think he deserves a punch in the nose, no matter how irrational his irritation may have seen in the moment. Like I said, from experience, his concerns are valid.

    1. I agree. But I also think it's possible that Cas's anger could stem from the fact, that yes, Dean feels he made a bad decision..but that decision was made because Cas felt/believed that Dean made a bad decision making a deal with Billie. I think judging from what he said last week about all those people dying because Sam and dean weren't there to save them...Cas feels that the world wouldn't be ok without the boys. not only does he need them, but the world does too. They are too important. Though they might not be defined as Cas's opinion the consequences of a world without the Winchesters is worse than any with them.

      In that respect...Cas feels his decision is just and Dean's was wrong. Dean on the other hand doesn't feel the same, so he thinks that Cas's decision wasn't necessarily the right one. Hence the bickering.

      Personally, I'm with Cas on this one. I think the world without the Winchester would've been worse, especially with the BMOL and Lucifer's spawn to deal with. This wasn't a time for the Winchesters to leave the planet....losing them, could lead to cosmic consequences. I think I'm with Cas on the wait and see what these consequences are and deal with them least in that instance, they are all together and that's how they can deal with it. Together they are strong...Cas alone, what would become of the world?

  3. Agree to disagree. I wouldn't know where to start refuting your points but I do respect your right to your own opinion. I see Dean very differently. And FWIW find Sam & Cas more hypocritical over the 12 year journey but as I said agree to disagree on this.

  4. I totally understand where Dean is coming from. Don't get me wrong I think I even said it. Dean fears because he and sam both have made the same mistake. I absolutely agree with Dean where his fear is concerned. It's really a double edged sword here...for lack of a better term...Dean's fear and concern stems from history...but I just think a little less slack on Cas would've been a better approach given that he and Sam have made the same mistakes before. I still think Mary would've died if Cas hadn't stepped up. I don't think Dean was worried about cosmic consequences with a gun aimed at his mom's head....and if he could've done something he would've acted. He might have done things differently, probably, but this was a moment where Cas had to make a decision, so he made it. I can't fault him for it as I believe the Winchesters are more important to this world than not.

    I agree, and this was not a dean bashing article...first thing I did was express my love for him. I think I've even noted how far he's come in most respects...I also don't just don't declare >>>dean acted like an ass to cas and that's it....if I see Dean doing something that irks me, I will go, in way to much depth, the whys and where it all stems from. I understand Dean and more than not I even agree with him...

    all I'm saying here is that even full of fear and worry, I don't think Cas deserved the constant ragging and bashing for the first 20 minutes of the episode..and then dean goes and recognizes this behavior in ishram and asks Cas...why do you let him treat you that way...when dean was in fact treating Cas that way...that's what got me upset...that particular pot/kettle interaction...

    We all get that Dean was justified in his fear...I get it..i agree with it...I just thought he should've handled it more line in the beginning showing his anger...his explanation at the end like he did...but not all that ragging in the middle...

    unknown, I appreciate that you even took the time to read....I knew it was risky business pointing out what imho I see to be one of dean's I said, flaw or not, I still love dean Winchester.....I have seen everyone's character growth over the years....especially Dean Winchester's believe me it doesn't go unnoticed.

    Thanks for the feedback.

  5. This may have already been covered, and apologize if so, but I think Dean's worry was more about the"unknown" aspect of the cosmic consequences more like how using the spell from the book of the damned brought about an unknown repercussion. With Dean's deal (s) to bring back/save Sam or Sam saying yes to Lucifer, I feel like at the time they knew the boundaries. (Does that make sense?? does in my head!)

    I did roll my eyes though when Dean was asking Cas why he let Isham talk down to! Definitely pot/kettle however kinda human nature. In an "I hate my sister" but "Hurt my sister, you die" kinda way. Just my take.

    I read on Twitter someone saying something about it meaning something that the blinding light affected Dean and not Sam. I didn't take it that way at all. Y'all?

    1. This made me laugh! I have twin nieces, and when they'd fight, if one was being mean to the other and you told that twin off for it, the other twin would jump in going "don't talk to my sister like that!" It was perfectly fine for them to be yelling at each other of course!! 😂

    2. I don't fault Dean for his worry, especially because they don't know what the consequences might entail...if we ever see these consequences. I just thought that there was a more mature way that Dean could've handled his feelings. I know it didn't last long. I know it was based on love...

      but when one is on the receiving might not feel that way at the time it's happening.

      In this instance, I don't think Cas was feeling necessarily hurt by Dean, it felt more like Cas was angry at how ungrateful Dean was being. Putting consequences aside for a minute...playing devil's advocate....I think cas just wanted a thank you for saving his mother's life. for saving their lives.

      you know...when I say Dean could've handled it differently.. I mean....

      Cas, you stupid ass...consequences Cas...consequences...thanks though, thanks for saving our mom...thanks for saving us...but dammit cas...consequences...

      that's all it would've taken

      I thought about Luci/Michael in Swan Song when you mentioned the sister thing...

      When cas threw the molatav at Michael...

      Luci..."Did you just molatave my brother?"....nobody touches/kills Michael but me...exploding Cas...LOL

      Thanks for reading.

  6. Wow! That was a bit harsh on Dean. I do appreciate your honest opinion and I didn't care for the rift between Dean and Cas in the beginning either (only because it seemed awkwardly written) but Dean did say that he wasn't mad from the start. He was worried (if not a little freaked) about the cosmic consequences for them and the world. They have been down that road sooo many times. It was over pretty quickly as soon as Cas went in the diner alone. There was no way that Dean was going to stand around outside while his best friend (besides Sam) was facing god knows what by himself. And of course when Dean saw how Ishim was treating Cas his "protect-family-at-all-costs" came out in full force. I do love that no matter how powerful the adversary Dean will not back down when it comes to threats against those he loves. Anyway it seemed like a short lived tiff and the rest was a great TFW episode.
    Alicia Wit was perfect. The story was full of nuggets that might suggest a solution to the impending Nephilim. I really enjoyed the episode very much.

    1. Thank you totally agree and you put much better then I because I have been sitting here debating how to put nicely what I want to say and you said it perfectly. Thank you :)

    2. sorry you felt I was harsh on Dean...funny because I thought dean was harsh on Cas..LOL...I just thought that Dean being bitchy with Cas and then questioning him on how he can let Ishram treat him that way was a bit ironic...just thought Dean could've handled his fear/worry with a little less hissiness....and it would've been nice for dean, in the middle of his at least thank cas for saving his mom...then he could've gone back to berating Cas...I think that's really all Cas was looking for.

    3. The early scenes were written a little awkwardly (although I thought Sam calling Dean out for not watching the road was hysterical) but it was over quickly and back to business. Nobody messes with Dean's family and Cas seemed to understand where Dean was coming from anyway. Cas wasn't happy that the Dean made a deal with Billie that he felt he needed to break no matter the cost and Dean wasn't happy that Cas may have brought about the next world ending (or at the very least Castiel ending) event just to save the Winchesters. They just weren't happy with each other at the moment. But in the end they are going to do what they always do. Stick together ( Dean wasn't going to let Cas go off alone) and deal with whatever comes their way. I'm intrigued.

    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

    5. Cheryl,

      I concur....that's fancy talk for I totally agree.

    6. you know what would be fun....if the consequence of breaking the pact was the destruction of the cage...then Luci and Michael would be free....wouldn't it be something if next season it was luci/Michael vs. Sam and Dean....and Cas of course...

      dare to fan fic.

  7. I think another important point to make above and beyond the points being beautifully articulated here is that Dean has nearly lost Castiel on more than one occasion due to Cas' rash decisions and the fallout of those decisions. Both times Cas was acting in a way which he believed would help to save both the world and his friends. He was nearly lost to the Winchesters when he let the Leviathan in and again when he let Lucifer in. The consequences of these decisions put Dean pretty much at war with his best friend while also trying to save him - not knowing if, in the long run, he may have to kill Castiel for the greater good. Not knowing if he'd ever have his friend, who has become family for both him and Sam, back. We don't know what the outcome of breaking the deal with Billie may or not be, whether the consequences would be global or directed at the individual who broke the deal. As Cas said at the end of the episode, he'd be cool with dying to save the Winchesters - but don't think for a second Dean would be cool with that. Sure, if the shoe was on the other foot, he'd die for Cas. But isn't that just being human? Who wouldn't risk their life for family, and yet be angry if their family did the same for them? This isn't hypocrisy, this is love.

  8. I think you are misinterpreting what i said....the part that was kettle/pot wasnt deans anger at cas for making deal....the hypocritical part was dean being mean to cas...obviously getting to him too because cas was coming back at dean....then questioning cas on how he can let ishram talk like that and treat him that way..when cas has been taking it from dean for the first 20 minutes...

    1. I think "m1tchells" made a good point about that a case of ""I hate my sister" but "Hurt my sister, you die" kind of family thing." It's okay for us to be mean to a family member, but we're still going to defend the hell out of them is someone else is mean to them! My twin nieces were hilarious with this! I think it's pretty common behaviour for us to be harshest with those we love - lord knows Sam and Dean have been doing that to each other for years.

    2. I do think however due to deans history that there shouldve been a wee bit more understanding towards cas decision... I have no doubt that sam feels exactly as dean does...he cares for cas just as much...sam has always been understanding and forgiving towards cas...sams concern is equal to deans..comparatively speaking..i just felt sam handled it less harshly...

    3. Let me rephrase because this isnt nor is it meant to be a sam vs dean anything..

      I am trying to pick the words .....i think both sam and dean feel the same for cas. I also believe they share the same concern. I think they are both aware of their past bouts with consequences...i dont think one brother feels more for their friend...they do differ in the way they express themselves...i just felt in this instance dean shouldve expressed himself in a more understanding way

  9. We know where dean was

    We the viewers know where dean is coming from...the only person on show who truly knows dean....sam...not even mom can know dean like sam...cas doesnt know dean or what drives him like his brother does...cas doesnt psychoanalyze either...cas, like a child, is basic...

    If mom yells at child because child scared them, all the child knows is that they are being scolded. If mom doesnt explain to them that they yelled at them because they feared for their safety. A mom has to be clear..or the child only sees the anger..not the reason behind the that respect cas is like a child...dean only showed his anger...this in turn was making cas wasnt until the end that dean explained himself..cas needed to know this sooner

    1. Cas is a grown man if he isn't use to Dean's hissy fits by now and he has seen them when he lost the tablets and when he cracked Sam's wall. Dean still makes up with him. You would think he knows this about Dean and how much he worries about the consequences of deals. And also last I checked Cas gave as good as he got. heck he made dean almost drive baby into traffic. Sorry I thought the fighting between cas and dean entertaining made the episode for me. I am use to Dean being that way. Guess that is the dean fan in me. But it was nice to see Cas able to have his own come backs this time.

  10. I was entertained as well....exasperated sam amused me to no end.

  11. I don't think cas was annoyed with dean's hissy fit ( I do agree that those he would be used too, though I don't think it hurts any less)....I think he was annoyed at the lack of appreciation for saving his mother, saving them and ridding the threat of the empty over their heads for all eternity. if anyone deserves heaven, it's sam and dean Winchester. Billie reminds me of Zachariah in a way....Zach thought God left the planet, so he took it upon himself, he the others to start the apocalypse. With Death gone, Billie took it upon herself to make the decision that the Winchesters should be thrown in the empty. I don't believe she had the authority to make such a decision....I always assumed Chuck/God would override it. I too enjoyed that Cas gave as good as he got....then of course I was with Sam in that they both were behaving like children. Funny how the youngest of the three was the only adult in the whole scenario.

    The only thing I will say, is that I don't think Cas would know about Dean's worry about consequences with deals...because that's kind of a recent thing...pretty much s10. Dean didn't really pay any mind to the consequences of taking on the MOC. When Cas begged Dean not to put Sam's soul back in...Dean responded with we put it in and if there are consequences we will deal with them. Dean was dead on set closing the gates of hell without regard to what that might was only because Naomi told Dean what would happen that he stopped them...but if she hadn't sam would've died...they never really considered true consequences of what closing the gates meant...and what it could've meant for the world. Despite all Dean's talk of consequences when Sam wanted to rid Dean of the the end, Dean still chose family...he still chose his brother...he killed Death. so in the end..his love trumped consequences....Cas is just following in Dean's footsteps...guess that's what happens when you become part of the Winchester Family....

  12. I just want to thank you all for not only reading but actually giving feedback. This has been really fun for me...not making you mad at me...but actually having again....thanks so much...

    if I make you angry with me this week...will you all come back again? LOL

  13. Now that I've got you all here....

    Does anyone think that it is at all possible that Billie isn't really just ordinary reaper, but she is in fact Death? Do you think it's remotely possible that Billie knew that there was no way that she'd actually be taking a Winchester and she knew exactly what Cas would do, given she had the boys pinned down and Mary would likely offer herself? Do you think it's possible that this was yet another attempt, this time with Mary getting to hear it...that Billie was trying to remind the boys once again about the empty, that there's no coming back from it...and that it still could be used as a solution to the Nephilim problem.. not killing it , but sending it somewhere it cannot hurt anyone. Perhaps we will see Death again....I still think he's been more helpful than not when it came to the Winchesters despite his annoyance at their returns.....I always assumed Death was working with Chuck.

  14. Hey Anna, great thoughts but wow a bit harsh!! You know Dean has grown alot over the years and all of TFW have made amazingly bad choices at one time or another. Dean has always been the caretaker, parent, protector out of the group and sometimes when he can't control a situation he freaks. He has his tough guy walls up in full force at the start because he's worried for Cas, because he doesn't know what the "cosmic consequences" are. In typical Dean fashion, the gruff, narky side comes out to play, and I loved that Cas gave it back, lol! That's Dean, always worrying about his friends and family and I loved that Sam knew exactly what was going on! Loved that Sam knew Dean would storm in, lol too funny, he knows Dean too well!! As to Dean's calling Cas on how he let Ishram talk down to him, I think it is like siblings love. As in yep I can rag on him but no way in hell can anybody else be rude to Cas! Let's face it, Dean Winchester has a badass outside but inside he's soft, sentimental pussycat, lol!! Great episode, loved Alicia Witt as Lily, hope to see more of her. As to Billie, no I think she was just a reaper but I do think that Death isn't dead. All in all a great episode, until next week, where we have Dean losing his memories, cue tissues!! Can't wait!! Ciao!

  15. My intent wasn't meant to be harsh on Dean W. Funny I kind of thought Dean was being a bit harsh on Cas. If I think a character is being a certain way and I call them out on it, I'm not just going to insult them and that's it. I won't just say....Dean is acting like such an ass...If I say Dean is an ass, I'm going to go into the why's and that of course might entail history. I love Dean, but over the years, he's made some hypocritical decisions. Doesn't make me love him any less. Most often those decisions were understandable...give or take one or two. Dean Winchester operates from a place of love...I get that too.

    In this case though, even though his behavior stemmed from love and fear and worry for his friend, it's not hard to see the irony here...which I believe Cas did and is what made Cas so angry, angry enough to retaliate, which he doesn't really do. Dean was harping on Cas' bad decision but, Cas made this decision because of Dean's bad decision to summon Billie and make a blood oath pack that would send the Winchesters to the Empty.

    I think the way Cas saw it, the world without the Winchesters, given his whole speech to Mary about all the people who died because the boys weren't there to save them, would be a far worse consequence than any cosmic consequence billie threatened them with. The BMOL's are trying to take over and I don't think that's good, not at all...Lucifer's spawn has just been created....not a good time for the Winchesters to be going anywhere. With the Winchesters, the world has a chance...without them....with just Mary and Cas...the world is my belief is that Cas feels the world needs the Winchesters and any consequences that might come after will be dealt with.

    so glad to hear from you....thanks so much for reading

    am looking forward to tomorrow's eppy...